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What does this sign mean?

 
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rlfwood
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PostPosted: Sat Oct 29, 2005 8:52 pm    Post subject: What does this sign mean? Reply with quote

Can somebody please tell me what this sign means?





Ralph

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Kip
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PostPosted: Sun Oct 30, 2005 12:55 am    Post subject: signs Reply with quote

Looks like one of my Hoodoo Permissive warning signs...then again I could be wrong. Embarassed
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Kip

Creator of PRRR and Hoodoo Pass 2.5 "Cascadia" (semi-retired)
"I'm not a real engineer, but I play one on TV"

NERR's Hoodoo Pass 1.0.
NERR's Wisconsin Central 1.1
NERR's Chippewa Valley 1.0
Now released to the NERR masses.
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rlfwood
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PostPosted: Sun Oct 30, 2005 12:12 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

It is from Hoodoo. What exactly is "permissive warning"?


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Kip
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PostPosted: Sun Oct 30, 2005 2:29 pm    Post subject: hoodoo Reply with quote

Quote:
It is from Hoodoo. What exactly is "permissive warning"?


My little invention to compensate for the "shortcomings" of the MSTS program. MSTS signals only come with 8 signal aspects in the hard code. Since we are not able to "make" more type signals, we're stuck with just 8. Granted, you can edit a particular signal to do otherwise, but only at the sacrifice of another...always 8...no more. Anyway...with that said.

It has been known for a long time that signals in MSTS are "touchy" concerning speed and location on the tracks when approaching one from a distance. You do have the option of using HUD (F4) track monitor to see what's coming a couple of miles ahead. However, for those "die-hard" hoggers that do NOT want to use the HUD or want to know what's coming...that is why the signs were created...just for Hoodoo.

Scenario: The sign shown here tells me that I am approaching a 2H Permissive, hence the double line. If I do not have the Track Monitor on I do not know if the signal is telling me that a diverging switch is activated...in other words...I might be deviating from the main path. Might be.... This warns the engineer that a permissive signal is approaching. If I get a Green over red...we keep Highballing...if we get a Yellow over green, we may have a possible divergence or stop. The sign prepares the engineer for a possible stop or slow-down. Now...normally, there is another Permissive signal between the double Per and the Absolute at the switch. In the same scenario, if I have a yellow over green the speed will need to be reduced to 45mph; if I have to stop at the switch then the 1H Permissive will be yellow and at 30 mph. That means the 2H Absolute at the switch will be red over red or STOP!

Now...There is another permissive warning sign. This one has one stripe, that means a 1H Permissive is approaching. They are placed between the 2H Permissive and 1H permissive. Think of them as a "non-signal" or Permissive Aproach warning signs.

If the scenario has a single track approaching a diverging route, then both type permissive signs are used. If it is a converging point...then just the 1h Permissive is used with the corresponding sign. These signs were an experiment only because of the lack of more signal aspects. The "almost-future" MSTS2 (now a Train Artisan program) had a built-in Signal editor to create more than 8 aspects. I was told that it worked OK, but we'll just have to see whan that aprticular code is released. One other reason the sign was made was for the "distance" problem when needing to slow down. You're gonna need more than a mile to stop dragging 10,000 tons! The signs help prepare the engineer to "slow'er down...and take heed...that all.

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Kip

Creator of PRRR and Hoodoo Pass 2.5 "Cascadia" (semi-retired)
"I'm not a real engineer, but I play one on TV"

NERR's Hoodoo Pass 1.0.
NERR's Wisconsin Central 1.1
NERR's Chippewa Valley 1.0
Now released to the NERR masses.
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rlfwood
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PostPosted: Sun Oct 30, 2005 5:03 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

OK, I think I follow that. I guess the bottom line for me is that, since I use the Track Monitor, the signs are not telling me anything that I can't see in the Monitor. Is that right?
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jurtz
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PostPosted: Sun Oct 30, 2005 8:44 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yes, that should be true. But Hoodoo Pass is one of the routes that you can realistically run without the track monitor. The sigview update (from MLT) works well with the Hoodoo Pass signals, and with the all the signs, it can be done. I also marked up a map with the posted speed limits to help me from time to time. A lot of Hoodoo Pass activities are "end to end" runs, which have no reverse points, so running without the track monitor is doable. I highly recommend giving it a try.
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Kip
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PostPosted: Sun Oct 30, 2005 10:53 pm    Post subject: monitor Reply with quote

Quote:
OK, I think I follow that. I guess the bottom line for me is that, since I use the Track Monitor, the signs are not telling me anything that I can't see in the Monitor. Is that right?


Sort of. What the monitor won't tell you is what's next after the 1H or 2H permissive. Their main design was for those to "slow-down" or be prepared to slow down just in case. The track monitor, though a helpful tool is entirely unrealistic. You could do away with the monitor and use in-cab signal panels. This, however, does not help with the speed limit that might come up or when you approach it too quickly.

Quote:
Yes, that should be true. But Hoodoo Pass is one of the routes that you can realistically run without the track monitor. The sigview update (from MLT) works well with the Hoodoo Pass signals, and with the all the signs, it can be done. I also marked up a map with the posted speed limits to help me from time to time. A lot of Hoodoo Pass activities are "end to end" runs, which have no reverse points, so running without the track monitor is doable. I highly recommend giving it a try.


Yes. Hoodoo was designed to NOT use the track monitor. In Hoodoo, the usual speed limit for 2H Permissive that is on Approach will be about 45mph and slow approach (prepare to stop) is 30mph...which usually means the next 2H Absolute signal will be STOP. If you are not using the track monitor, the signs are very handy. This will let you know that a different approach is possible...so be wary. I have run Hoodoo without the monitor many times and it is alot more fun that way. Of the other routes I did (or modified) I did not use these signs only because they are not prototypical. The signs were designed strictly for Hoodoo as an experimrent and signal aid.

Here are some threads concerning this:

http://www.vnerrforums.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=12928&highlight=sign

http://www.vnerrforums.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=4515&highlight=signs

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Kip

Creator of PRRR and Hoodoo Pass 2.5 "Cascadia" (semi-retired)
"I'm not a real engineer, but I play one on TV"

NERR's Hoodoo Pass 1.0.
NERR's Wisconsin Central 1.1
NERR's Chippewa Valley 1.0
Now released to the NERR masses.
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rlfwood
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PostPosted: Mon Oct 31, 2005 2:05 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Actually, after I read Kip's first explanation, I went back to running a Hoodoo work order that I had started, and came to pretty much the same conclusion: that Hoodoo could probably be run without the Track Monitor without a great deal of difficulty. I really don't much care for the MLT signals, so I think I'll try it with the default signals and no Track Monitor on my next Hoodoo run.

Many thanks to you both for your patient explanations.


Ralph

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